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	<title>Comments on: 3Leaf&#8217;s virtual I/O system</title>
	<atom:link href="http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/</link>
	<description>Data storage info &#38; analysis</description>
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		<title>By: Sean Turner</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/comment-page-1/#comment-61838</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 12:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=443#comment-61838</guid>
		<description>Modern applications are mostly developed under a virtual machine model (e.g. Java or .Net).

Recently vendors such as Weblogic and IBM have realised that running a virtual application machine on an (bloated) OS which is in turn running on a virtual hardware machine is just silly. I expect that we will soon see apps that run a lot closer to the base virtual machine (though they won&#039;t know or care), cutting out lots of fat and overhead (you can run a slim linux VM with Java in less than 100MB).

Thus most of the heavy lifting will be in the VM hypervisor and its drivers, which will also manage the sharing with the applications.

I can also see DB VMs that cut most of the OS out (maybe part of why Oracle is so keen on Red Hat?) and again take on most of the storage smarts.

The hypervisor could then provide two interfaces, a file based one (like ZFS or Google) and an object based one like you have mentioned before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Modern applications are mostly developed under a virtual machine model (e.g. Java or .Net).</p>
<p>Recently vendors such as Weblogic and IBM have realised that running a virtual application machine on an (bloated) OS which is in turn running on a virtual hardware machine is just silly. I expect that we will soon see apps that run a lot closer to the base virtual machine (though they won&#8217;t know or care), cutting out lots of fat and overhead (you can run a slim linux VM with Java in less than 100MB).</p>
<p>Thus most of the heavy lifting will be in the VM hypervisor and its drivers, which will also manage the sharing with the applications.</p>
<p>I can also see DB VMs that cut most of the OS out (maybe part of why Oracle is so keen on Red Hat?) and again take on most of the storage smarts.</p>
<p>The hypervisor could then provide two interfaces, a file based one (like ZFS or Google) and an object based one like you have mentioned before.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jengates Blog &#187; links for 2007-05-01</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/comment-page-1/#comment-60148</link>
		<dc:creator>Jengates Blog &#187; links for 2007-05-01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 23:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=443#comment-60148</guid>
		<description>[...] StorageMojo » 3 Leaf’s virtual I/O system (tags: storage) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] StorageMojo » 3 Leaf’s virtual I/O system (tags: storage) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/comment-page-1/#comment-60141</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 22:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=443#comment-60141</guid>
		<description>To elaborate on my point about Solaris, Zones are supposed to allow the &quot;one application per OS&quot; model to be used with no performance overhead or extra license fees. I think handling concurrent applications is not really about performance or reliability or stuff like that -- it&#039;s about managing configurations (such as &quot;app A requires Java 1.4.2.7.5r2 but app B requires Java 1.5.6.8&quot;).

3Leaf&#039;s approach seems to be to efficiently run one app per (cheap) server but soon even a low-end server will be so powerful that you&#039;ll need some kind of virtualization inside the box. At that point it becomes a fight between the OS and hypervisor vendors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To elaborate on my point about Solaris, Zones are supposed to allow the &#8220;one application per OS&#8221; model to be used with no performance overhead or extra license fees. I think handling concurrent applications is not really about performance or reliability or stuff like that &#8212; it&#8217;s about managing configurations (such as &#8220;app A requires Java 1.4.2.7.5r2 but app B requires Java 1.5.6.8&#8243;).</p>
<p>3Leaf&#8217;s approach seems to be to efficiently run one app per (cheap) server but soon even a low-end server will be so powerful that you&#8217;ll need some kind of virtualization inside the box. At that point it becomes a fight between the OS and hypervisor vendors.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Todd</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/comment-page-1/#comment-60116</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 18:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=443#comment-60116</guid>
		<description>My impression is that Richard and Wes are having at least some of the same difficulties seeing any major value-add here that I am.  If a server isn&#039;t working its storage all that hard, surely using 1 to 4 GigE ports into the fabric will be far less expensive (and possibly more performant) than introducing an additional smart box into the path, and if its needs are greater than that, where&#039;s the benefit - is there some real reduction in *management* overhead here?

I also agree with Wes about Solaris (and perhaps AIX and even crusty old HP-UX as well; *certainly* VMS, though at this point, perhaps no one cares any more):  there&#039;s no lack of OSs that handle lots of processes (whether homogeneous or heterogeneous) just dandy - Windows just doesn&#039;t happen to be one of them, and that&#039;s the problem, since porting applications to a more competent OS appears to present more obstacles than simply virtualizing Windows systems such that each OS instance need support only a single application.

The other related point is that the old Unix paradigm of one process per client connection is pretty much passe:  multi-threaded applications are common now virtually everywhere they are appropriate, which would eliminate a fair amount of the value of virtualizing servers if Windows itself were as reliably stable running such an app as some of the more mature OSs are (and thus didn&#039;t need virtualizing to minimize the number of threads lost on a failure).

Some people believe that Windows really can come somewhere near matching the reliability of some of the other OSs I mentioned if properly configured.  If so, then &#039;proper configuration&#039; appears to be something that few Windows admins are able to achieve, creating much of the thriving virtualization market which we see today (the balance perhaps coming from economies in management that can accrue from managing only a single application per server rather than suitably configuring a single OS instance to protect multiple applications from each other).

- bill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My impression is that Richard and Wes are having at least some of the same difficulties seeing any major value-add here that I am.  If a server isn&#8217;t working its storage all that hard, surely using 1 to 4 GigE ports into the fabric will be far less expensive (and possibly more performant) than introducing an additional smart box into the path, and if its needs are greater than that, where&#8217;s the benefit &#8211; is there some real reduction in *management* overhead here?</p>
<p>I also agree with Wes about Solaris (and perhaps AIX and even crusty old HP-UX as well; *certainly* VMS, though at this point, perhaps no one cares any more):  there&#8217;s no lack of OSs that handle lots of processes (whether homogeneous or heterogeneous) just dandy &#8211; Windows just doesn&#8217;t happen to be one of them, and that&#8217;s the problem, since porting applications to a more competent OS appears to present more obstacles than simply virtualizing Windows systems such that each OS instance need support only a single application.</p>
<p>The other related point is that the old Unix paradigm of one process per client connection is pretty much passe:  multi-threaded applications are common now virtually everywhere they are appropriate, which would eliminate a fair amount of the value of virtualizing servers if Windows itself were as reliably stable running such an app as some of the more mature OSs are (and thus didn&#8217;t need virtualizing to minimize the number of threads lost on a failure).</p>
<p>Some people believe that Windows really can come somewhere near matching the reliability of some of the other OSs I mentioned if properly configured.  If so, then &#8216;proper configuration&#8217; appears to be something that few Windows admins are able to achieve, creating much of the thriving virtualization market which we see today (the balance perhaps coming from economies in management that can accrue from managing only a single application per server rather than suitably configuring a single OS instance to protect multiple applications from each other).</p>
<p>- bill</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/comment-page-1/#comment-59940</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 04:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=443#comment-59940</guid>
		<description>This sounds the same as Topspin VFrame.

So it&#039;s cheaper to buy the 3Leaf gateway and an IB HCA for each server than to buy a FC HBA for each server? Or is the idea to spend money on IB switch ports and save money on Ethernet/FC switch ports? Maybe I could imagine that, since enterprisey switches are so expensive.

BTW, I think the OS that can handle lots of concurrent applications is supposed to be Solaris.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sounds the same as Topspin VFrame.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s cheaper to buy the 3Leaf gateway and an IB HCA for each server than to buy a FC HBA for each server? Or is the idea to spend money on IB switch ports and save money on Ethernet/FC switch ports? Maybe I could imagine that, since enterprisey switches are so expensive.</p>
<p>BTW, I think the OS that can handle lots of concurrent applications is supposed to be Solaris.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/04/29/3-leaf-comes-out/comment-page-1/#comment-59628</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=443#comment-59628</guid>
		<description>Robin,
Another &#039;stealth&#039; website... not much detail.
You say &quot;yet another shot across the bow of costly FC and Ethernet infrastructure&quot; ...  I hope it is PCI Express and not Infiniband. 

I hope they have an easy, low cost  way to connect to storage.... this may take another round of VC funds.

It seems that the  cost of the 10Gbit Ethernet proving to be as painful as the cost of FC ?.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,<br />
Another &#8216;stealth&#8217; website&#8230; not much detail.<br />
You say &#8220;yet another shot across the bow of costly FC and Ethernet infrastructure&#8221; &#8230;  I hope it is PCI Express and not Infiniband. </p>
<p>I hope they have an easy, low cost  way to connect to storage&#8230;. this may take another round of VC funds.</p>
<p>It seems that the  cost of the 10Gbit Ethernet proving to be as painful as the cost of FC ?.</p>
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