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	<title>Comments on: Apple&#8217;s touchless file system conversion patent</title>
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	<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/</link>
	<description>Data storage info &#38; analysis</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen GOULD</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-198902</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen GOULD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-198902</guid>
		<description>Tom  - the problem was you were too far ahead of the pack.  The real problem is establishing and adopting standards before the processes become online.  We managed that with your assistance at the OIC but it took 10 years  regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom  &#8211; the problem was you were too far ahead of the pack.  The real problem is establishing and adopting standards before the processes become online.  We managed that with your assistance at the OIC but it took 10 years  regards</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Koltai</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-198796</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Koltai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 07:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-198796</guid>
		<description>Sorry Folks, not really new. We (Unix folk) were doing very similar things in 1989/1990 when converting UFS to VFS under ICL Unix implementation of SVR5.4. And my memory might be wrong but the Novell got into the act with their Unix system a few years later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Folks, not really new. We (Unix folk) were doing very similar things in 1989/1990 when converting UFS to VFS under ICL Unix implementation of SVR5.4. And my memory might be wrong but the Novell got into the act with their Unix system a few years later.</p>
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		<title>By: Apple Patents FS Converter !</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-165819</link>
		<dc:creator>Apple Patents FS Converter !</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-165819</guid>
		<description>[...] 29th, 2007 &#183; No Comments  I found this article on Storagemojo. Seemingly, Apple has come up with a filesystem converter. Aremarkable breakthrough! Just imagine the ease with which I could experiment, I have to keep aside an entire drive while trying out new things and this is a PITA. Instead this patent filed on the 1st of August is going to eliminate most of my problems (err this utility will be available on Linux right ?). I respect the fact that Apple is coming up with something like this and guess what, Apple is moving to ZFS ? I am of the opinion that Apple will have to mount its boot partition on something else as Sun itself has been unable to boot OpenSolaris off a ZFS partition. Still, by October, ZFS is going to be rid of that problem. Lots of cool stuff happening in the storage domain. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 29th, 2007 &middot; No Comments  I found this article on Storagemojo. Seemingly, Apple has come up with a filesystem converter. Aremarkable breakthrough! Just imagine the ease with which I could experiment, I have to keep aside an entire drive while trying out new things and this is a PITA. Instead this patent filed on the 1st of August is going to eliminate most of my problems (err this utility will be available on Linux right ?). I respect the fact that Apple is coming up with something like this and guess what, Apple is moving to ZFS ? I am of the opinion that Apple will have to mount its boot partition on something else as Sun itself has been unable to boot OpenSolaris off a ZFS partition. Still, by October, ZFS is going to be rid of that problem. Lots of cool stuff happening in the storage domain. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: brainsnorkel.com &#187; links for 2007-06-14</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-80608</link>
		<dc:creator>brainsnorkel.com &#187; links for 2007-06-14</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-80608</guid>
		<description>[...] StorageMojo » Apple’s touchless file system conversion patent Potentially painless HFS to ZFS conversion patent (tags: pantent apple zfs storage computing) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] StorageMojo » Apple’s touchless file system conversion patent Potentially painless HFS to ZFS conversion patent (tags: pantent apple zfs storage computing) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Byan</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-80203</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Byan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-80203</guid>
		<description>Prior art: Alsoft&#039;s DiskWarrior has behaved in this manner for years, although it doesn&#039;t change the type of the file system. It repairs a possibly-corrupt file system by reconstructing all the metadata from scratch. It&#039;s a short step from there to changing the type of the metadata.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prior art: Alsoft&#8217;s DiskWarrior has behaved in this manner for years, although it doesn&#8217;t change the type of the file system. It repairs a possibly-corrupt file system by reconstructing all the metadata from scratch. It&#8217;s a short step from there to changing the type of the metadata.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Harris</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-79833</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 02:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-79833</guid>
		<description>Steve,

It was one thing to license low-volume companies to build Mac knock-offs. Selling Mac OS X to consumers and maybe to OEMs is another business entirely. Not that I rate it at all likely in the near term. But if Msoft keeps screwing up, Apple could swoop in five years from now.

Also, note the Safari on Windows announcement. Apple is starting to appreciate high volume.

&quot;If you like iTunes you&#039;ll love Safari!&quot; Followed by: &quot;If you like iTunes and Safari, you&#039;ll love OS X!&quot;

Jeremy,

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Robin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>It was one thing to license low-volume companies to build Mac knock-offs. Selling Mac OS X to consumers and maybe to OEMs is another business entirely. Not that I rate it at all likely in the near term. But if Msoft keeps screwing up, Apple could swoop in five years from now.</p>
<p>Also, note the Safari on Windows announcement. Apple is starting to appreciate high volume.</p>
<p>&#8220;If you like iTunes you&#8217;ll love Safari!&#8221; Followed by: &#8220;If you like iTunes and Safari, you&#8217;ll love OS X!&#8221;</p>
<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!</p>
<p>Robin</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-79444</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-79444</guid>
		<description>Hmmm...  so I&#039;m not supposed to read patents ( http://storagemojo.com/?p=460 ) and yet the flowcharts and main points have been copied right into blog posts... this is getting tricky.  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230;  so I&#8217;m not supposed to read patents ( <a href="http://storagemojo.com/?p=460" rel="nofollow">http://storagemojo.com/?p=460</a> ) and yet the flowcharts and main points have been copied right into blog posts&#8230; this is getting tricky.  <img src='http://storagemojo.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Damien</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-79387</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-79387</guid>
		<description>If Leopard was available to run on a range of specific hardware, e.g. nForce 4 and above, a few Intel chipsets, I&#039;d line up over-night to get a license.  I&#039;ve got a G4/533 with OSX-Tiger and an Athlon64/nForce4 PC, and would dearly love to be able to run OSX on the PC, and the only reason I can&#039;t is drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Leopard was available to run on a range of specific hardware, e.g. nForce 4 and above, a few Intel chipsets, I&#8217;d line up over-night to get a license.  I&#8217;ve got a G4/533 with OSX-Tiger and an Athlon64/nForce4 PC, and would dearly love to be able to run OSX on the PC, and the only reason I can&#8217;t is drivers.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveJ</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-79148</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 04:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-79148</guid>
		<description>Apple seem to be a very focussed *hardware* company. I think it unlikely they will change soon.

They&#039;ve had many chances to license their software - 68000 systems and the PPC reference platform (CHIRP?) - but haven&#039;t.

The only way I can see them keeping their focus, &#039;staying pure&#039; perhaps, is to kick-out Mac OS/X into a separate company - but that leads to problems like Palm has had...

They will have a window of opportunity if Microsoft ever hits a financial crisis like IBM in 1989/90 - or if Microsoft gets into legal problems with consumer protection legislation (Operating Systems should *operate* if the hardware is OK. It can&#039;t be that hard - hobbyists built Linux if their notional backyard/shed for nothing, and it passes that test much better.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apple seem to be a very focussed *hardware* company. I think it unlikely they will change soon.</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve had many chances to license their software &#8211; 68000 systems and the PPC reference platform (CHIRP?) &#8211; but haven&#8217;t.</p>
<p>The only way I can see them keeping their focus, &#8216;staying pure&#8217; perhaps, is to kick-out Mac OS/X into a separate company &#8211; but that leads to problems like Palm has had&#8230;</p>
<p>They will have a window of opportunity if Microsoft ever hits a financial crisis like IBM in 1989/90 &#8211; or if Microsoft gets into legal problems with consumer protection legislation (Operating Systems should *operate* if the hardware is OK. It can&#8217;t be that hard &#8211; hobbyists built Linux if their notional backyard/shed for nothing, and it passes that test much better.)</p>
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		<title>By: SteveJ</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-79147</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 04:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-79147</guid>
		<description>&#039;convertfs&#039; is interesting, but misses a very important point from the Apple patent... No data copying.

From the convertfs page: &quot;moves files from the primary filesystem to the mounted image&quot;
From other stuff on the pages, it&#039;s not clear to me that the original filesystem goes away either - it seems the new filesystem is created within the original FS... Not apples and apples.

For me the whole point of the Apple patent is that only the meta-data is changed - the data is left inplace.

It&#039;s like doing an in-place sort - the clever bit is twiddling pointers, not copying massive amount of data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;convertfs&#8217; is interesting, but misses a very important point from the Apple patent&#8230; No data copying.</p>
<p>From the convertfs page: &#8220;moves files from the primary filesystem to the mounted image&#8221;<br />
From other stuff on the pages, it&#8217;s not clear to me that the original filesystem goes away either &#8211; it seems the new filesystem is created within the original FS&#8230; Not apples and apples.</p>
<p>For me the whole point of the Apple patent is that only the meta-data is changed &#8211; the data is left inplace.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like doing an in-place sort &#8211; the clever bit is twiddling pointers, not copying massive amount of data.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Harris</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-78885</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-78885</guid>
		<description>Matt,

The analogy is far from perfect, but instructive nonetheless. For a couple of decades Ford Motor was the world&#039;s largest automobile manufacturer in unit volume and sales with the Model T. And then the market changed and Ford didn&#039;t move fast enough. General Motors took the lead and been the world&#039;s largest car company ever since. Yet now Toyota, with years of steady work, is ready to take the crown. My point is a modest one: just because Microsoft has been the desktop leader doesn&#039;t mean they always will be. Steve Jobs is a hyper-competitive guy who loves to win. Apple is changing the competitive landscape and changing with it. With iTunes Apple is now on the huge majority of Windows machines, showing users how software &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; be. If they keep Microsoft on the defense, Apple plays offense. 

There is nothing Toyota has done that GM couldn&#039;t do. They just didn&#039;t. Microsoft is under attack on numerous fronts, as they should be. Apple just happens to be the best funded and most creative contender.

Robert,

I agree that Apple wouldn&#039;t support a lot Wintel configs. As I thought about it some more it occurred to me that perhaps the Vista Pro configs from 3-5 major vendors would be a manageable number. I don&#039;t rate it as likely, but Steve had OS X running on Intel for five years before they released it. He is willing to invest in technology that gives Apple strategic flexibility.  The same team probably has OS X running on HP, Dell and Lenovo PCs today, learning about the potholes they&#039;d face.  As Microsoft tries to improve customer satisfaction by requiring more uniform hardware from vendors, they play into Apple&#039;s hands. 

Ben,

Thanks for the links! I&#039;d been wondering if anyone else had the same idea. I&#039;d note that these utilities are limited to a single OS - Linux - and require support for sparse files. The Apple patent is a cross-platform technology. Like most such ideas there are worthy progenitors who point the way.

Robin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>The analogy is far from perfect, but instructive nonetheless. For a couple of decades Ford Motor was the world&#8217;s largest automobile manufacturer in unit volume and sales with the Model T. And then the market changed and Ford didn&#8217;t move fast enough. General Motors took the lead and been the world&#8217;s largest car company ever since. Yet now Toyota, with years of steady work, is ready to take the crown. My point is a modest one: just because Microsoft has been the desktop leader doesn&#8217;t mean they always will be. Steve Jobs is a hyper-competitive guy who loves to win. Apple is changing the competitive landscape and changing with it. With iTunes Apple is now on the huge majority of Windows machines, showing users how software <i>could</i> be. If they keep Microsoft on the defense, Apple plays offense. </p>
<p>There is nothing Toyota has done that GM couldn&#8217;t do. They just didn&#8217;t. Microsoft is under attack on numerous fronts, as they should be. Apple just happens to be the best funded and most creative contender.</p>
<p>Robert,</p>
<p>I agree that Apple wouldn&#8217;t support a lot Wintel configs. As I thought about it some more it occurred to me that perhaps the Vista Pro configs from 3-5 major vendors would be a manageable number. I don&#8217;t rate it as likely, but Steve had OS X running on Intel for five years before they released it. He is willing to invest in technology that gives Apple strategic flexibility.  The same team probably has OS X running on HP, Dell and Lenovo PCs today, learning about the potholes they&#8217;d face.  As Microsoft tries to improve customer satisfaction by requiring more uniform hardware from vendors, they play into Apple&#8217;s hands. </p>
<p>Ben,</p>
<p>Thanks for the links! I&#8217;d been wondering if anyone else had the same idea. I&#8217;d note that these utilities are limited to a single OS &#8211; Linux &#8211; and require support for sparse files. The Apple patent is a cross-platform technology. Like most such ideas there are worthy progenitors who point the way.</p>
<p>Robin</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Bennett</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-78873</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-78873</guid>
		<description>Gosh!  Novel!

Oh wait... here is an implementation for Linux:
  http://directory.fsf.org/ConvertFS.html

As you can see from the homepage, the first release was on August 23, 2001:
  http://tzukanov.narod.ru/convertfs/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh!  Novel!</p>
<p>Oh wait&#8230; here is an implementation for Linux:<br />
  <a href="http://directory.fsf.org/ConvertFS.html" rel="nofollow">http://directory.fsf.org/ConvertFS.html</a></p>
<p>As you can see from the homepage, the first release was on August 23, 2001:<br />
  <a href="http://tzukanov.narod.ru/convertfs/" rel="nofollow">http://tzukanov.narod.ru/convertfs/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-78856</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-78856</guid>
		<description>Apple will NOT support the huge assortment of desktop PC hardware, period!  IBM may well contract to support the software; but tackling the OS hardware issues and drivers is something Apple will continue to avoid.  Apple hasn&#039;t used Intel&#039;s new desktop chips which are now deploying with Vista for instance.  You&#039;re suggesting that Apple fight for the business desktop market they lost in the &#039;80s while this market gets attacked by web 2.0 and Linux.  Apple would have to provide forward guidance that they keep secret for marketing purposes now.  It doesn&#039;t make sense as Apple&#039;s doing quite well without changing their culture as the majority of their desktop customers are business customes with their limited perspective of computing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apple will NOT support the huge assortment of desktop PC hardware, period!  IBM may well contract to support the software; but tackling the OS hardware issues and drivers is something Apple will continue to avoid.  Apple hasn&#8217;t used Intel&#8217;s new desktop chips which are now deploying with Vista for instance.  You&#8217;re suggesting that Apple fight for the business desktop market they lost in the &#8217;80s while this market gets attacked by web 2.0 and Linux.  Apple would have to provide forward guidance that they keep secret for marketing purposes now.  It doesn&#8217;t make sense as Apple&#8217;s doing quite well without changing their culture as the majority of their desktop customers are business customes with their limited perspective of computing.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2007/06/09/apples-touchless-file-system-conversion-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-78651</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=475#comment-78651</guid>
		<description>Probably not. Apple is not interested in giant leaps to world domination. They&#039;re doing well at what their current strategy is, which is identify market areas that could be done better and apply some minor to intermediate innovations and profit.

Everyone keeps pointing to how Apple could and, in their opinion, will dominate the world of mass-market PCs. Delusions of grandeur I say. They&#039;ll take baby steps into other people&#039;s territory if anything.

I really think the iPhone is a baby step despite how the media has hyped it up to be. I&#039;m excited about the iPhone too but Apple isn&#039;t saying or acting like they plan to put Motorola, Nokia and LG out of business. They just want their implementation to do well because they believe it&#039;s the best.

Back to ZFS, I give it an 95% chance that it will replace HFS+ as the default CLEAN install file system. As for the converter, I really hope it works out but I&#039;d give that much lower odds. Guess we&#039;ll find out on Monday!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably not. Apple is not interested in giant leaps to world domination. They&#8217;re doing well at what their current strategy is, which is identify market areas that could be done better and apply some minor to intermediate innovations and profit.</p>
<p>Everyone keeps pointing to how Apple could and, in their opinion, will dominate the world of mass-market PCs. Delusions of grandeur I say. They&#8217;ll take baby steps into other people&#8217;s territory if anything.</p>
<p>I really think the iPhone is a baby step despite how the media has hyped it up to be. I&#8217;m excited about the iPhone too but Apple isn&#8217;t saying or acting like they plan to put Motorola, Nokia and LG out of business. They just want their implementation to do well because they believe it&#8217;s the best.</p>
<p>Back to ZFS, I give it an 95% chance that it will replace HFS+ as the default CLEAN install file system. As for the converter, I really hope it works out but I&#8217;d give that much lower odds. Guess we&#8217;ll find out on Monday!</p>
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