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	<title>Comments on: 2008: cluster storage goes mainstream</title>
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	<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/</link>
	<description>Data storage info &#38; analysis</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 14:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
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		<title>By: MatrixStore &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Building a Data Archive</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-170862</link>
		<dc:creator>MatrixStore &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Building a Data Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-170862</guid>
		<description>[...] Or general industry movements: 2008 Cluster Storage goes mainstream [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Or general industry movements: 2008 Cluster Storage goes mainstream [...]</p>
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		<title>By: XIV + IBM = breakout technology &#171; Storage Effect</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163583</link>
		<dc:creator>XIV + IBM = breakout technology &#171; Storage Effect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163583</guid>
		<description>[...] Read what Robin Harris has to say on this. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read what Robin Harris has to say on this. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Steege</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163576</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Steege</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163576</guid>
		<description>Hi Robin,
If IBM's smart, they'll move fast to finally make inroads on EMC's turf!  Nextra's SATA drive architecture will give them a cost advantage.  

IBM (reach) + XIV (technology) is the magic that provides an edge for this version of the technology over all the others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Robin,<br />
If IBM&#8217;s smart, they&#8217;ll move fast to finally make inroads on EMC&#8217;s turf!  Nextra&#8217;s SATA drive architecture will give them a cost advantage.  </p>
<p>IBM (reach) + XIV (technology) is the magic that provides an edge for this version of the technology over all the others.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163423</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163423</guid>
		<description>Robin, 
Yes, a spare box is an obvious solution . So how long will it take to rebuild &#38; rebalance the content of 15 disks. While maintaining reasonable performance levels…probably a day… while the system runs unprotected? 

They obviously need 120 disks to establish a fairly wide stripe width in order to guarantee some level of performance. What is their stripe width..? 

Their seek patterns are random and not a lot can be done to improve i/o per sec using cache algorithms (disks already implement ‘elevated’ seeks). So…all they have left is brute force caching and this explains the very large size of cache in each disk enclosure.

Nextra datasheet shows that the cabinet contains 8 disk enclosures, i.e. their stated  120 disk minimum configuration. This means that one of the disk enclosures is a ‘spare’? 
If so, then it seems that they have a ‘stripe width’ of 52 disks, with (say) 1 spare disk.
Some spare space is required on each disk …. So the useable space is at around  40% of the array capacity … and the same goes for wasted power.  

It all seems to be ‘brute force’ engineering… it is hard to get impressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,<br />
Yes, a spare box is an obvious solution . So how long will it take to rebuild &amp; rebalance the content of 15 disks. While maintaining reasonable performance levels…probably a day… while the system runs unprotected? </p>
<p>They obviously need 120 disks to establish a fairly wide stripe width in order to guarantee some level of performance. What is their stripe width..? </p>
<p>Their seek patterns are random and not a lot can be done to improve i/o per sec using cache algorithms (disks already implement ‘elevated’ seeks). So…all they have left is brute force caching and this explains the very large size of cache in each disk enclosure.</p>
<p>Nextra datasheet shows that the cabinet contains 8 disk enclosures, i.e. their stated  120 disk minimum configuration. This means that one of the disk enclosures is a ‘spare’?<br />
If so, then it seems that they have a ‘stripe width’ of 52 disks, with (say) 1 spare disk.<br />
Some spare space is required on each disk …. So the useable space is at around  40% of the array capacity … and the same goes for wasted power.  </p>
<p>It all seems to be ‘brute force’ engineering… it is hard to get impressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Pearson (IBM)</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163301</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Pearson (IBM)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163301</guid>
		<description>Richard, Dimitris,
There is one spare "data module".  The copies of 1MB blobs are copied across data modules.  In the event of a data module failure, the spare is brought into action, and all data is already available on the other modules.  Background tasks re-balance the 1MB blobs when bad module is replaced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, Dimitris,<br />
There is one spare &#8220;data module&#8221;.  The copies of 1MB blobs are copied across data modules.  In the event of a data module failure, the spare is brought into action, and all data is already available on the other modules.  Background tasks re-balance the 1MB blobs when bad module is replaced.</p>
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		<title>By: Dimitris Krekoukias</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163240</link>
		<dc:creator>Dimitris Krekoukias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-163240</guid>
		<description>Probably, the reason a large number of disks is needed from the get-go is to not be able to start out with a bad config due to the algorithms used, and it probably needs to make sure no brick can go down and affect the entire system, so, EMC Centera-like, everything on a brick has to be distributed among the other bricks. 

Just my gut feeling, and how I'd do it...

3Par, Compellent and others are pretty similar. 

D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably, the reason a large number of disks is needed from the get-go is to not be able to start out with a bad config due to the algorithms used, and it probably needs to make sure no brick can go down and affect the entire system, so, EMC Centera-like, everything on a brick has to be distributed among the other bricks. </p>
<p>Just my gut feeling, and how I&#8217;d do it&#8230;</p>
<p>3Par, Compellent and others are pretty similar. </p>
<p>D</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162828</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 05:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162828</guid>
		<description>Robin,
After taking a good look at their product, it seems that they use ‘purpose built’ 15 disk JBOD-style chassis and probably front end the disks with a commodity Intel motherboard, mounted at the rear of the chassis …so it is not the usual 6 disk commodity motherboard approach as with (say) Google, where disks are supported by the on-board  chipset.

James…we all know about bonding . As noted above, this seems to be an X86 motherboard with 15 disk backend interface, supporting 1 Gbit  iSCSI protocol, with totally random seek patterns to disks (design criteria). They will get around 5 MB per disk ... but it is cheap, obvious… and probably a ‘good enough’ solution, for the time-being.

A question …. What happens if we lose a complete 15 disk chassis ? 
It contains a single motherboard,  not designed for hot swap. What are their repair logistics &#38; the expected time to completely re-sync the mirrors (?). 
Surely they don’t expect the customer to swap the chassis &#38; disks. Let see how it self-heals here.

Another Question… the system is based on a minimum configuration of 160 disks. Does this mean that the stripe width is fixed ? What is required as a "minimum disk expansion increment",  in terms of hardware ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,<br />
After taking a good look at their product, it seems that they use ‘purpose built’ 15 disk JBOD-style chassis and probably front end the disks with a commodity Intel motherboard, mounted at the rear of the chassis …so it is not the usual 6 disk commodity motherboard approach as with (say) Google, where disks are supported by the on-board  chipset.</p>
<p>James…we all know about bonding . As noted above, this seems to be an X86 motherboard with 15 disk backend interface, supporting 1 Gbit  iSCSI protocol, with totally random seek patterns to disks (design criteria). They will get around 5 MB per disk &#8230; but it is cheap, obvious… and probably a ‘good enough’ solution, for the time-being.</p>
<p>A question …. What happens if we lose a complete 15 disk chassis ?<br />
It contains a single motherboard,  not designed for hot swap. What are their repair logistics &amp; the expected time to completely re-sync the mirrors (?).<br />
Surely they don’t expect the customer to swap the chassis &amp; disks. Let see how it self-heals here.</p>
<p>Another Question… the system is based on a minimum configuration of 160 disks. Does this mean that the stripe width is fixed ? What is required as a &#8220;minimum disk expansion increment&#8221;,  in terms of hardware ?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162514</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162514</guid>
		<description>RAID-1 protection is both a heavy penalty and a thin armor in a system that professes to scale out to hundreds or thousands of disks. Isilon's N+M protection scheme seems much more suitable to address expected MTBF rates while providing a scalable file system on top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RAID-1 protection is both a heavy penalty and a thin armor in a system that professes to scale out to hundreds or thousands of disks. Isilon&#8217;s N+M protection scheme seems much more suitable to address expected MTBF rates while providing a scalable file system on top.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162462</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162462</guid>
		<description>Robin,
What is this new definition of ‘quality’ commodity boxes…. power hungry general purpose Intel server reference design, made in China… a new marketing term? 

Also, their cabling to externally connected switches must be a clutter and the number of power supplies and fans don’t add much to the overall system reliability.  

The argument regarding It is very clear that such ‘commodity’ general purpose hardware, even when built for Dell, HP or IBM  is based on limited production runs, constantly ‘new” chipsets and become obsolete on a yearly basis…. i.e. unsupportable throw-away replacement mentality….with all of the implications re OS, BIOS, drivers, etc.

It is easier &#38; cheaper to design/build a high quality, reliable X86 “controller” box, with the exact hardware functionality and minimum power consumption to do the job …. much like some of the X86 Telco or computing  ‘blade’ infrastructure hardware.

One would think that IBM understands this…. even if Moshe &#38; team do not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,<br />
What is this new definition of ‘quality’ commodity boxes…. power hungry general purpose Intel server reference design, made in China… a new marketing term? </p>
<p>Also, their cabling to externally connected switches must be a clutter and the number of power supplies and fans don’t add much to the overall system reliability.  </p>
<p>The argument regarding It is very clear that such ‘commodity’ general purpose hardware, even when built for Dell, HP or IBM  is based on limited production runs, constantly ‘new” chipsets and become obsolete on a yearly basis…. i.e. unsupportable throw-away replacement mentality….with all of the implications re OS, BIOS, drivers, etc.</p>
<p>It is easier &amp; cheaper to design/build a high quality, reliable X86 “controller” box, with the exact hardware functionality and minimum power consumption to do the job …. much like some of the X86 Telco or computing  ‘blade’ infrastructure hardware.</p>
<p>One would think that IBM understands this…. even if Moshe &amp; team do not.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Whyte</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162419</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Whyte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162419</guid>
		<description>The general RAID-X technology is not new, as pointed out, EVA, 3Par and many others do the same, its the overall architecture of the actual 'boxes' thats interesting, with 1-way functionality in the bricks that makes a difference. Once something has been 'cloned' by the RAID, any underlying functions needed are simple to implement. The internal 'fabric' maybe GigE today, but we have plans in that area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The general RAID-X technology is not new, as pointed out, EVA, 3Par and many others do the same, its the overall architecture of the actual &#8216;boxes&#8217; thats interesting, with 1-way functionality in the bricks that makes a difference. Once something has been &#8216;cloned&#8217; by the RAID, any underlying functions needed are simple to implement. The internal &#8216;fabric&#8217; maybe GigE today, but we have plans in that area.</p>
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		<title>By: joe m.</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162408</link>
		<dc:creator>joe m.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162408</guid>
		<description>NFJ..

Yes, it sounds like 3Par's "chunklets" too</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NFJ..</p>
<p>Yes, it sounds like 3Par&#8217;s &#8220;chunklets&#8221; too</p>
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		<title>By: joe m.</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162407</link>
		<dc:creator>joe m.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162407</guid>
		<description>Anyone have any idea on cost of the Nextra?  Particularly interested in $/GB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone have any idea on cost of the Nextra?  Particularly interested in $/GB</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162370</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162370</guid>
		<description>Here's how the rebuild works:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/InsideSystemStorage?entry=spreading_out_the_re_replication

So yeah, they rebuild a failed drive onto the empty space of many other drives. Also, much of the rebuild traffic could stay inside the bricks, making the interconnect irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s how the rebuild works:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/InsideSystemStorage?entry=spreading_out_the_re_replication" rel="nofollow">http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/InsideSystemStorage?entry=spreading_out_the_re_replication</a></p>
<p>So yeah, they rebuild a failed drive onto the empty space of many other drives. Also, much of the rebuild traffic could stay inside the bricks, making the interconnect irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: NFJ</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162358</link>
		<dc:creator>NFJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/2008/01/10/2008-cluster-storage-goes-mainstream/#comment-162358</guid>
		<description>Doesn't this distributed block mirroring and distributed spare space looks a little like HP EVAs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t this distributed block mirroring and distributed spare space looks a little like HP EVAs?</p>
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