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	<title>Comments on: Redundant array of inexpensive servers</title>
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	<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/</link>
	<description>Data storage info &#38; analysis</description>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206893</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206893</guid>
		<description>Sounds like the secret is getting out.

We run high end transaction systems running millions of revenue transactions a day with millions of online accounts. 

We&#039;ve used EMC and Netapps, but recently investigated &quot;open storage.&quot; running on 10GBe iscsi. Our benchmarks show that open storage on 10Gbe iscsi is comparable to EMC/Netapps. It is also a fltat architecture without the bottleneck of the storage processor. With the modern mirroring technologies provided by VM OEMs and by Database vendors, we get HA from them anyway. We can upgrade our hard drives and storage cards very cheaply - just swap them out. 

From a cost perspective, the lifecyle cost of open storage is 1/15th that of closed systems. Its also less cost to maintain because any good SA can build these boxes or support them - its just a server with a lot of drives. 

We moved all our non-prod systems to open storage and all our new production systems are now on open storage. It has saved us a ton of money and buying storage is now a signature process, not a procurement process. 

I do recommend going with established open storage vendors as they have accumulated expertise with these systems. They wills save you some time and if something is messed up, they will fix it - otherwise you are on your own. 

These are the ones we have used. 

http://www.emdstorage.com/

http://www.aberdeeninc.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like the secret is getting out.</p>
<p>We run high end transaction systems running millions of revenue transactions a day with millions of online accounts. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ve used EMC and Netapps, but recently investigated &#8220;open storage.&#8221; running on 10GBe iscsi. Our benchmarks show that open storage on 10Gbe iscsi is comparable to EMC/Netapps. It is also a fltat architecture without the bottleneck of the storage processor. With the modern mirroring technologies provided by VM OEMs and by Database vendors, we get HA from them anyway. We can upgrade our hard drives and storage cards very cheaply &#8211; just swap them out. </p>
<p>From a cost perspective, the lifecyle cost of open storage is 1/15th that of closed systems. Its also less cost to maintain because any good SA can build these boxes or support them &#8211; its just a server with a lot of drives. </p>
<p>We moved all our non-prod systems to open storage and all our new production systems are now on open storage. It has saved us a ton of money and buying storage is now a signature process, not a procurement process. </p>
<p>I do recommend going with established open storage vendors as they have accumulated expertise with these systems. They wills save you some time and if something is messed up, they will fix it &#8211; otherwise you are on your own. </p>
<p>These are the ones we have used. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.emdstorage.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.emdstorage.com/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.aberdeeninc.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.aberdeeninc.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206561</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206561</guid>
		<description>On the open source end, Matthew Dillon started DragonFly BSD in 2003 because he believed that clusters of servers was the future.  He built a new file system designed for mirroring between servers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the open source end, Matthew Dillon started DragonFly BSD in 2003 because he believed that clusters of servers was the future.  He built a new file system designed for mirroring between servers.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Harris</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206550</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206550</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll post the source after I&#039;m back home with the browser history.

Robin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll post the source after I&#8217;m back home with the browser history.</p>
<p>Robin</p>
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		<title>By: David Strom</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206543</link>
		<dc:creator>David Strom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206543</guid>
		<description>I would appreciate it if you could provide a link to or source for the Supermicro configuration you quoted.   I certainly don&#039;t doubt your pricing, I&#039;m just lazy &amp; it would help to know where you got it.  Supermicro direct, or....?

Keep up the good work, thanks.

--
David Strom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would appreciate it if you could provide a link to or source for the Supermicro configuration you quoted.   I certainly don&#8217;t doubt your pricing, I&#8217;m just lazy &amp; it would help to know where you got it.  Supermicro direct, or&#8230;.?</p>
<p>Keep up the good work, thanks.</p>
<p>&#8211;<br />
David Strom</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206507</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206507</guid>
		<description>$10K for Fishworks doesn&#039;t sound that bad; wouldn&#039;t an equivalent Data OnTap license cost over $50K?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$10K for Fishworks doesn&#8217;t sound that bad; wouldn&#8217;t an equivalent Data OnTap license cost over $50K?</p>
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		<title>By: Anand Babu Periasamy</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206506</link>
		<dc:creator>Anand Babu Periasamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206506</guid>
		<description>Exactly! Enterprise arrays were designed for unstructured data (database content).  It was all about high reliability for small capacity (less than 2TB). So enterprise storage vendors focused on solving the availability and performance problems at the hardware level (FC for low-latency, redundant RAID controllers for availability.. ). There is only so much you can do at the hardware level. As you keep adding hot-swap memory or hot-swap CPUs, it gets incredibly expensive. 

Today&#039;s storage requirements are way different. Most of the data is unstructured (office documents, images, music and video). 100TB is normal to start with. Some applications demand beyond PBs.  There is no way enterprise storage array vendors can scale their technology upwards (scale-up). There are physical limitations to number of CPUs, memory or I/O ports a single chassis can take.  

Answer is to scale at the software layer on top of redundant array of inexpensive comodity servers. Let software do the job. It is scalable to multi Petabytes.

2 weeks before we deployed GlusterFS on 8 server storage cluster of 142TB capacity and 384GB memory cache. It delivered 12Gigabytes/s read throughput and 8Gigabytes/s write throughput with iozone benchmarking. 1000 clients pounded on the storage cluster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly! Enterprise arrays were designed for unstructured data (database content).  It was all about high reliability for small capacity (less than 2TB). So enterprise storage vendors focused on solving the availability and performance problems at the hardware level (FC for low-latency, redundant RAID controllers for availability.. ). There is only so much you can do at the hardware level. As you keep adding hot-swap memory or hot-swap CPUs, it gets incredibly expensive. </p>
<p>Today&#8217;s storage requirements are way different. Most of the data is unstructured (office documents, images, music and video). 100TB is normal to start with. Some applications demand beyond PBs.  There is no way enterprise storage array vendors can scale their technology upwards (scale-up). There are physical limitations to number of CPUs, memory or I/O ports a single chassis can take.  </p>
<p>Answer is to scale at the software layer on top of redundant array of inexpensive comodity servers. Let software do the job. It is scalable to multi Petabytes.</p>
<p>2 weeks before we deployed GlusterFS on 8 server storage cluster of 142TB capacity and 384GB memory cache. It delivered 12Gigabytes/s read throughput and 8Gigabytes/s write throughput with iozone benchmarking. 1000 clients pounded on the storage cluster.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Kraska</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206504</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Kraska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206504</guid>
		<description>BTW, if one as a buyer is not comfortable with going the the second tier (SuperMicro, etc), one would do oneself a favor in talking to the Dell DCS folks. They only take calls from folks who buy in multirack commitments, but if you&#039;re this kind of buyer and need a tier 1 partner, Dell DCS is quite interesting. As a hint, you&#039;re going to find some very competitive commodity based solutions over yonder...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, if one as a buyer is not comfortable with going the the second tier (SuperMicro, etc), one would do oneself a favor in talking to the Dell DCS folks. They only take calls from folks who buy in multirack commitments, but if you&#8217;re this kind of buyer and need a tier 1 partner, Dell DCS is quite interesting. As a hint, you&#8217;re going to find some very competitive commodity based solutions over yonder&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206502</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206502</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t the big guys already doing this?  XiV from IBM is eactly like this (in fact using supermicro computers inside it).  EMC&#039;s Atomos, and HP/Oracle&#039;s Cloud offering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t the big guys already doing this?  XiV from IBM is eactly like this (in fact using supermicro computers inside it).  EMC&#8217;s Atomos, and HP/Oracle&#8217;s Cloud offering.</p>
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		<title>By: TS</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206500</link>
		<dc:creator>TS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206500</guid>
		<description>Robin:

You hit the problem right on.  That&#039;s exactly how NetApp and Sun&#039;s open storage is going, using commodity servers with SAS adapters connected to loads of cheap SATA drives through SAS Expanders.

I am in love with ZFS.  Unfortunately, Sun&#039;s Open Storage strategy is being killed by their non-transparent marketing and advertising, and most Sun people are in denial.  If Sun allowed Fishworks software to be purchased separately and installed on any SunFire X86 or Sun Sparc Machines, the open storage movement would instantaneously capture a majority of the enterprise storage market.   Instead, as I have said before, it is ruined by &quot;closed&quot;  hardware design choices, and  basically non-realistic list prices.(Even though nobody pays list prices, I would prefer to have the actual price listed. )

 Case in point, the 7310 is listed on Sun&#039;s website for $40K for a single head node, here, $75K for a HA pair, and 111K for a loaded HA pair
http://www.sun.com/storage/disk_systems/unified_storage/7310/,
People can actually get the 7310 from resellers for $12.5K each from CDW.
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1897910

That is nearly 70% off of list prices.  And that&#039;s still not good enough.  For people with a brain, they know that the 7310 is just a SunFire X4140, selling on CDW for as low as $2.5K
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1546283

On the storage front, the J4400 JBOD is only $3.6K
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1554430
Yet, filled with 22x 1TB Hitachi UltraStars + a couple of stecs,it suddenly becomes $32K
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1690801
People do know how much the 1TB drives are worth roughly $200 each for the Hitachi UltraStars.  1TB Western Digital and Seagates SATA can be had for $90 if you look around.

What it does is that it forces people to adopt NexentaStor&#039;s OpenStorage appliance software, even though Nexenta piggy backs off of ZFS and Solaris Engineering costs.

So sad.  I feel bad for ZFS engineering team.  It is absolutely the greatest engineering feat, ruined by moronic MBAs.  If Sun would wise up and truly open up the Fishworks software.  All they have to do is sell the Fishworks as a software upgrade($2000) to any Sun Server, it would take off very quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin:</p>
<p>You hit the problem right on.  That&#8217;s exactly how NetApp and Sun&#8217;s open storage is going, using commodity servers with SAS adapters connected to loads of cheap SATA drives through SAS Expanders.</p>
<p>I am in love with ZFS.  Unfortunately, Sun&#8217;s Open Storage strategy is being killed by their non-transparent marketing and advertising, and most Sun people are in denial.  If Sun allowed Fishworks software to be purchased separately and installed on any SunFire X86 or Sun Sparc Machines, the open storage movement would instantaneously capture a majority of the enterprise storage market.   Instead, as I have said before, it is ruined by &#8220;closed&#8221;  hardware design choices, and  basically non-realistic list prices.(Even though nobody pays list prices, I would prefer to have the actual price listed. )</p>
<p> Case in point, the 7310 is listed on Sun&#8217;s website for $40K for a single head node, here, $75K for a HA pair, and 111K for a loaded HA pair<br />
<a href="http://www.sun.com/storage/disk_systems/unified_storage/7310/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sun.com/storage/disk_systems/unified_storage/7310/</a>,<br />
People can actually get the 7310 from resellers for $12.5K each from CDW.<br />
<a href="http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1897910" rel="nofollow">http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1897910</a></p>
<p>That is nearly 70% off of list prices.  And that&#8217;s still not good enough.  For people with a brain, they know that the 7310 is just a SunFire X4140, selling on CDW for as low as $2.5K<br />
<a href="http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1546283" rel="nofollow">http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1546283</a></p>
<p>On the storage front, the J4400 JBOD is only $3.6K<br />
<a href="http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1554430" rel="nofollow">http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1554430</a><br />
Yet, filled with 22x 1TB Hitachi UltraStars + a couple of stecs,it suddenly becomes $32K<br />
<a href="http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1690801" rel="nofollow">http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1690801</a><br />
People do know how much the 1TB drives are worth roughly $200 each for the Hitachi UltraStars.  1TB Western Digital and Seagates SATA can be had for $90 if you look around.</p>
<p>What it does is that it forces people to adopt NexentaStor&#8217;s OpenStorage appliance software, even though Nexenta piggy backs off of ZFS and Solaris Engineering costs.</p>
<p>So sad.  I feel bad for ZFS engineering team.  It is absolutely the greatest engineering feat, ruined by moronic MBAs.  If Sun would wise up and truly open up the Fishworks software.  All they have to do is sell the Fishworks as a software upgrade($2000) to any Sun Server, it would take off very quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Kraska</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206491</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Kraska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206491</guid>
		<description>&quot;On the Supermicro the storage is $0.50/GB, while on the enterprise array it’s $5 GB or more. And enterprises can’t afford that for everything.&quot;

While I agree with the tone and tenor of this article, if one is paying more than $2.00/GB(usable) for one&#039;s enterprise tier 2 SATA storage, one is paying too much, at least in any reasonably large deployment.

Joe Kraska
San Diego CA
USA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the Supermicro the storage is $0.50/GB, while on the enterprise array it’s $5 GB or more. And enterprises can’t afford that for everything.&#8221;</p>
<p>While I agree with the tone and tenor of this article, if one is paying more than $2.00/GB(usable) for one&#8217;s enterprise tier 2 SATA storage, one is paying too much, at least in any reasonably large deployment.</p>
<p>Joe Kraska<br />
San Diego CA<br />
USA</p>
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		<title>By: Inside IT Storage &#187; Four ways enterprise storage looks like Healthcare</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206483</link>
		<dc:creator>Inside IT Storage &#187; Four ways enterprise storage looks like Healthcare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206483</guid>
		<description>[...] Robin Harris has an opinion on this. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Robin Harris has an opinion on this. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Steege</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206482</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Steege</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206482</guid>
		<description>We like to think that in the future this or that solution will &quot;win&quot;.  Not the case, as you pointed out.  Discussion about which storage solution is best sounds very much like today&#039;s Healthcare debate.  

One goal is universal coverage - &quot;good enough&quot; solutions that reach every byte.  For those that are willing &amp; able, there are higher cost options that provide much more complete performance and protection.  

While it would be nirvana if every data set could afford to be on the best and fastest solution, the math just doesn&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We like to think that in the future this or that solution will &#8220;win&#8221;.  Not the case, as you pointed out.  Discussion about which storage solution is best sounds very much like today&#8217;s Healthcare debate.  </p>
<p>One goal is universal coverage &#8211; &#8220;good enough&#8221; solutions that reach every byte.  For those that are willing &amp; able, there are higher cost options that provide much more complete performance and protection.  </p>
<p>While it would be nirvana if every data set could afford to be on the best and fastest solution, the math just doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206480</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206480</guid>
		<description>I have hands on experience with SuperMicro 846A-R1200B/846A-R900B chassis combined with 3ware 9650SE-24M8 raid controllers (with battery backed write cache). If you want RAID6, I think this combination kind of defines the price/performance/reliability/robustness sweet spot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have hands on experience with SuperMicro 846A-R1200B/846A-R900B chassis combined with 3ware 9650SE-24M8 raid controllers (with battery backed write cache). If you want RAID6, I think this combination kind of defines the price/performance/reliability/robustness sweet spot.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Orenstein</title>
		<link>http://storagemojo.com/2009/11/08/redundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-206472</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Orenstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storagemojo.com/?p=1677#comment-206472</guid>
		<description>Robin, The future is inexpensive servers and smart software. No doubt. Another thing for customers to consider is how much they want invested in an individual node and if that node should have 2 drives (seems to be Google&#039;s approach), or 4, 8, 12, 16, 24 or more. Some attention should be paid to both the speed of node repair/replacement/upgrade. This comes in to play when you have node failures, but also in the course of doing business when you have to upgrade nodes on the fly. The smaller the drive count the easier it becomes to NOT rely on any single node. And 2+TB drives help on the cost/capacity front! Since many of these overall systems (I&#039;m talking applications here) will last far longer than the individual life of any one server, folks should think about how the system will survive 2-3 complete server hardware upgrades while online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, The future is inexpensive servers and smart software. No doubt. Another thing for customers to consider is how much they want invested in an individual node and if that node should have 2 drives (seems to be Google&#8217;s approach), or 4, 8, 12, 16, 24 or more. Some attention should be paid to both the speed of node repair/replacement/upgrade. This comes in to play when you have node failures, but also in the course of doing business when you have to upgrade nodes on the fly. The smaller the drive count the easier it becomes to NOT rely on any single node. And 2+TB drives help on the cost/capacity front! Since many of these overall systems (I&#8217;m talking applications here) will last far longer than the individual life of any one server, folks should think about how the system will survive 2-3 complete server hardware upgrades while online.</p>
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